Block transfer problems with PLC5/40

[ceilingwalker]

Good day all. I had two mass flow control's good bad (not at the same time) and have now replaced them. The challenge I have is, where I'm supposed to be getting flow readings, all I get is "1". The flow control's are FIC_201 (N12:240), FIC_202 (N12:239), FIC_203 (N12:238), and FIC_204 (N12:237). An example of a flow control that is working is FIC_101 (N12:202). The flow control's are Parker/Porter Model#202UFFASTZTI. I called the mfgr for the valves before I installed the new ones to see if I needed to do anything to them before I installed them. At first I was told "no, they are plug and play". After I called them again because I was only getting "1" for the flow value, I asked the tech about the jumpers being different from the old control to the new. He checked on it, called me back about 45 minutes later and said "change the jumpers on the new control so they match the old (which is what I wanted to do in the first place but was told not to because they were "plug-n-play"), and I still only get the reading of "1". Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

Hello Brent ...

sorry, but I'm not following everything here ...

the addresses that you gave us are pointing at channels on a 1771-IFE/A analog input module ... when I check those addresses I do indeed see the "1" readings that you describe ...

my question is: have you confirmed that the new controllers that you installed are actually putting out the correct signal to the PLC? ...

correct me if I'm wrong, but the PLC is NOT in control of the valves is it? ...

specifically, it looks like the PLC is just trying to read a signal from the controllers – for an alarm – and possibly for display on an HMI, etc. ... is this correct? ...

suggestion: check the output signals from the controllers – and specifically make sure that they are correctly set up to provide either a VOLTAGE or a MILLIAMP signal – to match whatever you've got the PLC's analog input card set up for ...

if you have a "signal generator" – and if you could SAFELY apply it to the analog input module – and I'd be willing to bet more than pocket change that the analog signals would read correctly ...

specifically, I doubt very seriously that there's anything wrong with the block transfers ... you should be able to confirm that by feeding in a "known good" signal to one or two of the channels – as long as it's SAFE to do that ...

just a guess: maybe when you talked with the tech support people they were referring to the controller's ability to "plug and play" with the valves ... but ... maybe they weren't understanding how the controllers would be expected to work with the PLC ...

give me a call tomorrow afternoon if you like ... I'll be tied up during the morning – but will try to help if it's necessary ...

DISCLAIMER: I'm not familiar with the "controllers" that you're dealing with – so I'm basing the above on what I can see from the PLC end ...

good luck with it ...

 

[ceilingwalker]

Hello Brent ...

sorry, but I'm not following everything here ...

the addresses that you gave us are pointing at channels on a 1771-IFE/A analog input module ... when I check those addresses I do indeed see the "1" readings that you describe ...

my question is: have you confirmed that the new controllers that you installed are actually putting out the correct signal to the PLC? ...

correct me if I'm wrong, but the PLC is NOT in control of the valves is it? ...

specifically, it looks like the PLC is just trying to read a signal from the controllers – for an alarm – and possibly for display on an HMI, etc. ... is this correct? ...

suggestion: check the output signals from the controllers – and specifically make sure that they are correctly set up to provide either a VOLTAGE or a MILLIAMP signal – to match whatever you've got the PLC's analog input card set up for ...

if you have a "signal generator" – and if you could SAFELY apply it to the analog input module – and I'd be willing to bet more than pocket change that the analog signals would read correctly ...

specifically, I doubt very seriously that there's anything wrong with the block transfers ... you should be able to confirm that by feeding in a "known good" signal to one or two of the channels – as long as it's SAFE to do that ...

just a guess: maybe when you talked with the tech support people they were referring to the controller's ability to "plug and play" with the valves ... but ... maybe they weren't understanding how the controllers would be expected to work with the PLC ...

give me a call tomorrow afternoon if you like ... I'll be tied up during the morning – but will try to help if it's necessary ...

DISCLAIMER: I'm not familiar with the "controllers" that you're dealing with – so I'm basing the above on what I can see from the PLC end ...

good luck with it ...

No sir, I don't know exactly how to check the signal. I have no prints to work with for the mass flow control. I'm not even certain if this goes through the remote I/O or not.

The PLC is in control of the entire process. Just over a year ago we eliminated the RSBatch and the iFIX and now have only the PLC and the Factory Talk HMI.

The HMI tags that are reading from the PLC are the addresses I listed. The "1" that is seen in the data table is what is displayed as the flow value for the HF Gas lines.

One more thing that is troubling me is, this has not just affected the two HF Gas lines I changed, it has affected all 4 of them. It has not, however, affected the two H2 Gas lines nor the Ar Gas line.

 

[sthompson]

Brent:

Can you confirm the Model Number?

I haven't had any success finding it on the Parker/Porter Web Site.

Do you have a Link to the Manual?

Stu....

 

[Ron Beaufort]

I had two mass flow control's good [go?] bad (not at the same time) and have now replaced them.

I'm confused ... if you're calling these "flow controls" then what do they "control" – if (as you said) the PLC is in control? ...

I'm pretty much tied up on another project right now – but as near as I've had time to dig so far, the signals that you've mentioned APPEAR to only go to an alarm ... they might also be read by an HMI display – but I can't tell that from the program that you've posted ...

but ...

so far, I don't see anything that indicates that these signals are in any way associated with "controlling" anything ... I'll dig deeper tomorrow – but the question is WHERE IS THE SIGNAL COMING FROM THAT CONTROLS THE VALVES you've mentioned? ...

No sir, I don't know exactly how to check the signal.

I can't tell from here, but are your input channels from these devices set up to provide a VOLTAGE signal – or a MILLIAMP signal? ... remember that these signals have to be configured with JUMPERS inside the 1771-IFE/A analog input module ...

basically, once you know which type of signal the module is looking for (voltage or current) then you disconnect the wires for one of the channels – and then you provide a "known good" signal to the terminals on the module ... the data for that channel should read to reflect the signal that you're giving it ...

or ...

if it's a voltage signal, you can just put a volt meter across the appropriate terminals on the module and see if you're getting a decent signal ...

or ...

it's a milliamp signal, you'll have to "break the loop" and insert a milliamp meter in series with the signal from the field ...

 

[ceilingwalker]

Brent:

Can you confirm the Model Number?

I haven't had any success finding it on the Parker/Porter Web Site.

Do you have a Link to the Manual?

Stu....

That is the number on the invoice from the manufacturer as well as what is on the flow controller itself. I didn't have any luck searching the web either. I don't have prints for the system itself either.

 

[ceilingwalker]

I'm confused ... if you're calling these "flow controls" then what do they "control" – if (as you said) the PLC is in control? ...



I can't tell from here, but are your input channels from these devices set up to provide a VOLTAGE signal – or a MILLIAMP signal? ... remember that these signals have to be configured with JUMPERS inside the 1771-IFE/A analog input module ...

Analog signal goes to the Parker flow control for the setpoint. Analog input feeds back to analog input on PLC5. Sorry for the confusion.

When I was told on the second call to the mfg to change the jumpers to what the old mfc's settings were, I assumed that originally they came to me using a 4-20mA and changing the jumper changed it to voltage. I have yet to confirm that.

 

[ceilingwalker]

When I view the I/O Configuration for each PLC-5 Module it shows for the 1771-IFE module "0-5 volts DC to 0-20mA". That's in the RSLogix5 software.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

When I view the I/O Configuration for each PLC-5 Module it shows for the 1771-IFE module "0-5 volts DC to 0-20mA". That's in the RSLogix5 software.

well - sort of ...

look closer and you'll notice that it actually shows an EITHER-OR indication ... specifically, it means "0 to 5 volts DC ----- | OR | ----- 0 to 20 mA" ... note the symbol that they use in the middle represents "OR" – not "TO" ...

secret handshake: you can't tell which type signal (either VOLTAGE or MILLIAMPS) each input channel is using unless you take the IFE module apart and check the little JUMPERS inside ... specifically, we can't tell from just looking at the program file ...

NOTE: there's probably no need to check the jumpers inside the IFE module – since they shouldn't have been changed from when the system was working earlier ...

but ...

you need to know how each channel is set up (for VOLTS or for CURRENT) in order to make a conclusive test of its operation ...

and ...

you need to make sure that the new controllers are providing the SAME type of analog input signals that the old controllers were providing ...

.

 

[sthompson]

I can't open your RSLogix Program, it asks me for a password.

What Version of RSLogix was it created with?

Stu....

 

[ceilingwalker]

I can't open your RSLogix Program, it asks me for a password.

What Version of RSLogix was it created with?

Stu....

Sorry, password is 5161

 

[ceilingwalker]

If the input is supposed to be voltage and the jumpers on the controls were set to mA, do you think that could have damaged the analog input card?

 

[Ron Beaufort]

it probably wouldn't DAMAGE anything - but it wouldn't work right either ...

my guess is that your new controllers are configured to give a different type of signal than the old controllers gave you ...

if I'm right, then you need to correct that problem at the CONTROLLER end of the rope ... specifically, there's probably nothing wrong with the Block Transfers in your PLC program ...

 

[sthompson]

If the input is supposed to be voltage and the jumpers on the controls were set to mA, do you think that could have damaged the analog input card?

In my experience, probably not. Take an Ohmmeter and measure between the Analog Input and Common with the wires disconnected. If is Jumpered for mA, you should see 249 or 250 Ohms. If the resistance is very high, it is probably Jumpered for Voltage.

You could measure with a DC Voltmeter with the wires connected. If the Voltage is around 20-24VDC, the Parker/Porter is probably set for Current Output, if you measure a Voltage 0-10VDC, it is probably set for Voltage Output.

This is off the top of my head, and I have never had to check it this way.

It would be best to remove the Card if possible, and check the Jumpers. Both on your Analog Input and Output Card, and then record it somewhere.

Stu....

 

[JeffKiper]

I usually cheat to see if I have a signal. I use my meter on voltage and measure across the 2 screw terminals. That is of course you card is setup for single ended and not diff. If it is a 0~5vdc then no problem. If it is a 4~20mA then you get some voltage reading that SHOULD be proportional to that in the VDC range. If the load is a 250Ω you should read 1~5 VDC if it is a 500Ω you should read 2~10VDC. IS this an exact? No. Does this assume that it is a somewhat recognized standard analog circiut? Yes